NEW YORK (AP) 鈥� Errol Morris has just sat down with a reporter when his wife calls.
鈥淚鈥檓 being deposed,鈥� Morris says, smiling, into his phone. 鈥淚 hope that it鈥檚 going to turn into a criminal investigation, but I believe it鈥檚 just an interview.鈥�
Morris, the veteran documentarian of and knows a thing or two about interviews. He famously invented a contraption called to capture face-to-face eye contact on camera.
In his latest film, Morris sits down with the celebrated spy novelist John le Carr茅, the enigmatic author of 鈥淭he Spy Who Came in From the Cold鈥� and 鈥淭inker Tailor Soldier Spy.鈥� The interviews were conducted shortly before
Their exchange probes the life and work of le Carr茅, whose real name was David Cornwell, and who as a former British intelligent agent was, himself, expert in conducting interrogations. The film, which opens Friday in select theaters and on Apple TV+, is based on It's also an investigation into the murky depths of human nature and of history, where fact and fiction often blur.
The conversation has been edited for clarity and brevity.
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AP: Some of the first interviews you ever conducted were with the serial killer Ed Gein, whose murders inspired Robert Bloch鈥檚 novel 鈥淧sycho鈥� and Alfred Hitchcock鈥檚 film. I don鈥檛 know if you consider that the beginning鈥�
Morris: It鈥檚 certainly one of the starting points.
AP: Why do you think that was, that your life as an interviewer began in such a dark place?
Morris: I really don鈥檛 know if it has a simple answer. Maybe I felt comfortable talking to people. It was one of the ways I investigated murder, certainly Ed Gein鈥檚 murders in Waushara County, Wisconsin. It wasn鈥檛 just interviews. I mean, it鈥檚 a pattern in a lot of the films that I made, certainly the early films. 鈥淭he Thin Blue Line鈥� was a lot of interviews, but it was a lot of just research. I worked as a private detective, and what did I do as a private detective? The same damn thing. Talking to people. Research. I had a friend who once told me that you couldn鈥檛 trust people who didn鈥檛 talk a lot because how else would you know what they鈥檙e thinking? And I think there is some truth to this. When people talk, they have a way of revealing things about themselves. Didn鈥檛 Freud have that idea?
AP: Was that your approach to interviewing le Carr茅?
Morris: What really puzzles me about some of the press in connection with 鈥淭he Pigeon Tunnel鈥� is they talk about it as a contest between me and David Cornwell. Maybe he saw it that way, but I never saw it that way. I鈥檝e never seen any interview that way. I often like to say that I belong to the shut-the-f----up school of interviewing. If you just let people talk, within a very short period of time they will reveal how crazy they are. That certainly motivated 鈥淕ates of Heaven.鈥� 鈥淕ates of Heaven鈥� is a series of interviews but they鈥檙e monologues. Then I had this idea, what if I made a movie 鈥� this was around the time I did Robert McNamara for 鈥淭he Fog of War鈥� 鈥� what if I break some kind of standard rule? I love, by the way, breaking rules.
AP: Reenactments, most notably in 鈥淭he Thin Blue Line,鈥� were breaking a rule, weren鈥檛 they?
Morris: They were. It doesn鈥檛 matter if it鈥檚 documentary or drama, it鈥檚 all fake. It鈥檚 all reenacted. It鈥檚 all recreated. The oddity of all this was that there was this idea that documentary by just the very fact that it was made was truthful. Call it a na茂ve idea 鈥� I would call it a na茂ve idea. Truth isn鈥檛 something that鈥檚 handed through some kind of style or process of filmmaking. 鈥淭he Thin Blue Line,鈥� I thought, was endlessly misunderstood.
AP: It did lead to justice, vindicating an innocent man. As much as , that was a film that arrived at some truth.
Morris: Eh. There鈥檚 a line that I just adore in 鈥淭he Pigeon Tunnel.鈥� There鈥檚 an illustration from 鈥淭he Looking Glass War鈥� about how people see the world differently 鈥� inarguable. But the fact that people see the world differently does not mean the truth is subjective. It鈥檚 an important distinction and a confusion that鈥檚 made endlessly.
AP: Especially nowadays.
Morris: Especially nowadays, where the whole idea of truth is challenged. I have a friend who was probably the greatest living philosopher 鈥� he died recently 鈥� . And we were talking about 鈥淩ashomon.鈥� His explanation for 鈥淩ashomon,鈥� he said: 鈥淥h, it鈥檚 obvious. They鈥檙e all lying.鈥� People don鈥檛 have to be lying. They can be self-deceived. They can be confused. We see the world differently. And then David talks about objective truth, that he believes in objective truth 鈥� as do I.
AP: Le Carr茅 and you would seem to share some of the same obsessions. Did you feel sympatico with him?
Morris: Well, I really like him. And yes. I mean, I鈥檝e never made a film where I haven鈥檛 thought after the fact that I could have done a better job, and this film is no exception. I didn鈥檛 know that he would die so soon after that interview. People say I must have known or he must have known that it was to be his last interview. But I don鈥檛 think so. Just look at him on screen. He鈥檚 all there. This is not a man who is failing. It鈥檚 a man who鈥檚 at the top of his form. Extraordinarily fast, articulate, knowledgeable, funny, perverse. Yeah, that鈥檚 where I identify with him most of all 鈥� his funny, perverse sense of humor.
AP: The central, mysterious metaphor of le Carr茅's, 鈥淭he Pigeon Tunnel" 鈥� a tunnel that funnels pigeons to shotgun-wielding men 鈥� looms throughout the film.
Morris: I鈥檝e often compared the writing to a Kafka parable, except John le Carr茅 wrote it. What does it mean? To take one of the most famous Kafka parables, 鈥淏efore the Law鈥�: 鈥淭his door was meant for you and you alone and now I鈥檓 going to shut it.鈥� Now what does this mean? The pigeons, are they us? Who are the shooters? Is it the kind of parable that you need to think of in that way? It鈥檚 Sisyphean. People just endlessly doing things without even knowing why.
AP: That sounds like the view of history in 鈥淭he Fog of War鈥� 鈥� everyone just bumbling through.
Morris: Because we live in an era where people are just saturated with conspiracy theories of one form or the other. Conspiracies sort of simplify the world. They make the world intelligible to people. They do turn the world into string pullers and dupes. When I did the (Steve) Bannon movie ( ), Bannon was completely obsessed with cyclical history, and I would say fascists love cyclical history. Because: 鈥淢an isn鈥檛 the author of anything. All there is is dharma, destiny.鈥� I believe something much closer to what you just said 鈥� that history is a muddle. People are at cross-purposes with each other. They are really too confused to ever effectively conspire to do anything. I say to (le Carr茅) at some point: 鈥淗istory is chaos.鈥� And he agrees, 鈥淗istory is chaos.鈥�
Jake Coyle, The Associated Press
